I don't recall that being a direct indicator of metabolic stress. Sam Warriner. I'm just wondering when you guys get the opportunity to put all this amazing knowledge into practice Slowman's posts: Jan 26, 09 Jan 26, 09 Jan 26, 09 Jan 26, 09 Jan 26, 09 Jan 26, 09 Jan 26, 09 Jan 26, 09 Jan 26, 09 Jan 27, 09 Jan 27, 09 Jan 27, 09 Jan 27, 09 Jan 27, 09 Jan 27, 09 Jan 27, 09 Jan 27, 09 Markyv's posts: Jan 26, 09 Jan 26, 09 Jan 26, 09 Jan 26, 09 Jan 26, 09 Jan 26, 09 Jan 26, 09 Jan 26, 09 Jan 27, 09 Jan 27, 09 Jan 27, 09 Jan 27, 09 Jan 27, 09 Jan 27, 09 Jan 27, 09 Jan 27, 09 Jan 27, 09 Jan 27, 09 I don't have a catch phrase either.
Karen Smyers is an example of someone who, from what I've read, didn't really focus on building a big base over the winter in Boston. Instead she trained more like a typical AGer, doing high-quality indoor cycling and running sessions after taking a break after Hawaii.
She had a very long career near or at the top with success from sprints to IM. See, you are the perfect example of someone who doesn't HAVE a base yet Don't worry much and just run and run some more. Your speed will come with simply running more and longer. Little need for speed work - or just race often and that will be your speed work. I agree.
What a novice runner me thinks is a base is not a base. I am up north so I have 4 more months before is need to get ready for my first race this year. Long and slow for me for a while. I agree with Rod. Part of the issue here is we have people all over the map in terms of their back-ground, level of fitness and experience.
For this gentleman, not even in the sport two years, his needs are dramatically different than, say a mid level to top AG athlete who hase been training for 10 years and before that was a top AG swimmer. Like most issues their is a tendency to way over think about what would work for this guy. What special workouts should he be doing? What special program should he be on?
It's an over used cliche but more would be more for this gentleman when it comes to running - he should run more. Just run. It's not special or sexy. It's kinda boring, but it works!! If he does that he will have built a good running base. He'll be running a bit faster and more effciently at the end of the three months.
Here's a workout. Is it a "base" workout, or not? I do the 10x20 second on, 40 second off all the time in base training.
Short enough to run with reasonable stride length and rate that is identical to if not more than my 10KK race pace, but short enough that I never go into oxygen debt. I'll often end long runs this way just to remember what it is like to run fast at the end without taxing my body much. I find there is no recovery penalty for this workout, so I can do it year round as part of easy workouts, whether it is off season, in season or as a warmup before a running race.
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Regardless, both can be done during "base" training instead of ingraining LSD neuromuscular patterns What was Liz doing for those 11 Miles a week? We're starting to go in circles a little bit. I wonder if we could do something similar to what Slowman did in his original post, only divide top calibre IM pros into two camps: those who clearly fall into the classic Mark Allen pyramid camp, and those are clearly "reverse periodization" yes, I know, no such thing.
Then for each athlete you could go back and calculate 1 Average place increase or decrease at Kona 2 Average time increase at Kona 3 Consistency standard deviation in Kona placement over recent years. It'd be pseudo-scientific since you can't even pretend you're controlling all the factors you need to be able to to make any real conclusions, but it might be interesting to see if there's a strong indication one way or the other. Those like Sutton, MarkyV, etc, speak so strongly and confidently about these ideas that you'd think a body of data should be out there to back it up.
The trick would be a proper allocation of athletes into the two camps.
Could that be done? Liz was running pretty damn hard I'll bet. Rappstar said in this thread "like swimming, running is a skill sport". Slowman is right that triathletes on the balance are on fairly low running mileage for what they hope to achieve. WRT to neuromuscular patterns, I think the guy was referring to ingraining the neuro muscular patterns of "'slowness" in that if you never exercise a full range of motion for months on end, it is too much of a shock when you have to go fast.
In his day Mark Allen and Maffetone suggested downhill running on a mild grade to exercise the firing of high stride rate and stride length while being aerobic I believe 10x20 second on with 40 second cruise achieves pretty well the same thing if you don't have that nice gradual downhill grade. In my workout example, 30s fast intervals are neuromuscular conditioning.
They are not all out, nor can you get your HR sufficiently high in 30s to burn you out. Train your legs to move fast and efficiently without chasing mileage. Add in some threshold running on top of this Once he is steady at 40 mpw for a few months add in two days with hills This should suffice for the next year or two or three or four. But no one wants to wait What's interesting is that 40 mpw in the 80's was low mileage be it triathlete or runner.
Now 40 mpw is the top 5 percentile volume age group athlete Dev. Not you Dev just replying to the thread in general. Part of the problem with the current state of the discussion is that we are bouncing between talking about Professionals as well as mincing those thoughts with the thoughts that are applicable to amateurs. We are not being concise enough. A- run frequently and most if not all at a slow pace until you become B B- introduce speedwork with tempo, intervals, hills, progression runs, etc etc.
Your program might allow one to fake a sprint tri or an Olympic while slowing down at the end of the run if you are already fast swim biker and still finish well For a flat out 10K to get your fastest time, this will not work.
You likely have to forget about your program for marathon or Ironman. Of course it won't Dev!!
That's not the point. Please read Slowman's parameters and his request: "a guy who's never run a 20mi week but 3 times in his whole life" "and it's january, and he hasn't run 20mi cumulatively since thanksgiving" "nothing physically keeping him from running somewhere between 39min and 44min for a 10k at the tail end of a triathlon. OK, we've seen the anecdotal evidence.
People have had great success with MarkyV-like training plans. People have had great success with traditional LSD base training plans.
Can someone throw me the names of IM pros whose training plans are centered around Kona, and who fall clearly into one camp or the other? And also, if necessary, the range of years they were in one camp or the other if they've switched. Leave out those with not-well-known, or not-well-defined training philosophies. I want the really fanatical ones, i. Sutton's athletes or Allen and disciples.
I'll provide data similar to that in Slowman's OP, but instead of just averaging, I'll try to distinctly compare the two camps, and also look at more than just 10th place. I'd also like relatively current athletes within past 5 years so we can pretend to control for factors such as improvements in equipment and nutrition - which could easily account for the 6 minutes in the OP. If people were just a little honest with themselves about where they are now, and then made an honest assessment of their potential and goals, and stopped doing things that clearly hurt, my medical practice would be a lot less busy.
I'm sure I'll mess something up here. Trail: It is not a MarkyV philosophy. He was just vocal about it You can read some of Paulo's Mark's coach old posts and might be able to glean the same thing. You can pick up the Daniels running book and a summary of what you will find for a marathon is a prep period no speedwork, maybe strides followed by some speedwork FAST s, s with ample recovery and Intervals VO2 max stuff , and then a marathon specific period of long runs with marathon paced running or tempo intervals as well as weekly workouts of more LT based intervals.
Endurance Nation has their athletes do a lot of quality on the bike during the winter and then the IM specific training closer to the IM.
I unclipped my shoes from the peddles and sheepishly turned around to go home and check myself and my bike out. I was reading Mike Reilly 's book "Finding My Voice" and he talks about how the rule that allowed another competitor to provide assistance was changed. At worst, nothing would change. Let's get into the interview with Tom Griffin. The workouts are short and intense and no flimflam. I just got the go ahead to start slowly with Crossfit.
BarryP: This doesn't exactly answer your question, but to the posters who have asked about specificity In the Noakes post from another thread, that is what Mark Allen did in the final 8 weeks before Hawaii. As the race approaches, the training mimics the race effort.